RE: Brum. 'Green Man' Walks? Anyone Attended? - 3

John

I would have thought that these would have been rife on the south coast, as I believe the IOW was the last place in England to be converted from Paganism.

Phil

Phil, haven't seen one yet but I'm now on a mission to find any in Brighton, must say I'd never heard of them under that name until Nicks post.

John

Brighton had its own famous Green Man,

http://www.middlestreet.org/mshistory/greenman.htm

It might not be what you are looking for, but he is said to haunt his own family mansion.

Phil

Posted by phil

---

John

I would have thought that these would have been rife on the south coast, as I believe the IOW was the last place in England to be converted from Paganism.

Phil

---

It would be interesting to find out just what time-period this figure initially appeared, as it seems to be something of a mystery...... no one actually seems to know what the Green Man truly represents, so it would be hard to tie him in to any particular form of pagan worship in Britain..... Celtic, Druidic, Norse / Anglo-Saxon Heathen - earlier than all of these - or whatever?

Posted by signman

---

Phil, haven't seen one yet but I'm now on a mission to find any in Brighton, must say I'd never heard of them under that name until Nicks post.

---

Just having a look at the history of Brighton and I'd reckon St. Nicholas' Church would possibly be a good starting point for such things.... (I just slipped there while typing, coincidentally, and initially wrote 'St. Nicholas' Church would possibly be a god starting point for such things.... Laugh, laugh!!!!) Do keep us posted S.M.!!!!

Posted by Voltman

---

Posted by Nicholas

---

I'm sure it's nothing paranormal, but I can just never seem to get a good shot of the face concerned!?!? There is some reasonable detail on it, to the naked eye - but every time I take a pic, the detail is either badly blurred, or washed out!?! (See below).

---

Nick, might I suggest that if you get another chance to photograph this particular face, you get someone to shine a torch across it in order to create some shadows and add depth to it.
better still would be a remote flashgun. I think the problem with the photo is that all the details are a similar colour and so it looks flat..
VM

---

Thanks VoltMan - I will try the torch suggestion the next time we go...... Actually, we might get some nice effects with that!!

Posted by signman

---

Nick, hope you don't mind I've tweaked your photos a little, there's not much in the first one to see, too badly worn.
Denise I haven't found any yet.

---

Thanks S.M.

Too true - there isn't a lot of detail on the 'awkward' (laugh!) head to catch really. The historian in our group says it looks very old indeed and probably wouldn't have been in it's current position originally. The Coventry head was taken years ago with my old camera, which was only a 2 mega-px model....

All the best to everyone,

Regards,

Nick

Digressing slightly from the Green Man for a moment, but sticking with a pagan-ish theme: we (metal) detected some land this morning that had (at least according to some old maps we'd looked at) a feature on it called 'Dicks Well'. We asked the landowner about the well, but he'd never heard of it...... asking us to keep him posted if we found out anything, etc. After a lot of messing around in overgrown woodland and rhododendron thickets, we eventually found the site shown below!!! Evidently, it was a place that appears to have been revered to a certain extent in the past...... but seems mainly forgotten now. (Because of the detecting agreement with the owner, I can only say that the site is in the Staffordshire area at present, I'm afraid).

I have to say 'mainly forgotten' above, as there are a few very overgrown tracks - but still evidently in use sometimes - leading through the fields / dense woodland towards the well. As there is no possible, practical use for anyone to be going there now - it really is in the middle of nowhere - you can't help thinking that at least some people are still going there as a potential act of reverence to the site(?) From all of the beer cans, vodka bottles and other signs of revelry, I'd imagine it's possibly the younger, New Agey-types, rather than crusty historians or academics? Laugh, laugh!!!

The last pic, by the way isn't yours truly, but my detecting partner John!!! I told him that people used to leave tributes - coins, jewellery, etc - around these wells and he was on his knees with the detector as fast as you could say George III Penny!!!! Laugh, laugh!!!!

All the best,

Nick

Very interesting Nick, I wonder if that doorway is it or does it go the full 6 ft ish and has been filled in at some time, seems rather a large keystone for such a small door.
Deviating slightly, after traipsing around Brighton for 4 hours I haven't seen anything at all resembling a green man, St Nicks church was devoid of all ornamentation.

Posted by signman

---

Very interesting Nick, I wonder if that doorway is it or does it go the full 6 ft ish and has been filled in at some time, seems rather a large keystone for such a small door.
Deviating slightly, after traipsing around Brighton for 4 hours I haven't seen anything at all resembling a green man, St Nicks church was devoid of all ornamentation.

---

Hi SignMan,

No - that tiny opening is it, I'm afraid....... these small apertures are quite typical (height, depth, etc) for a lot of these sorts of things, it seems. (For examples, see below). Also, inside Dicks Well view - bottom of post.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/85535305@N00/2433514751/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nighthawkjw/4820658353/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30969151@N04/3123483892/

There was a gate over the opening at one time, as there is a single hinge-protrusion on one side of it and the receiver of a latch on the other.

I think a fox or some such may be living in there now, as the floor of the cell is covered in paw-prints and the hole at the rear seems to show scuff-marks where something has gone in and out..... Laugh!!

Re. the Green Men - sorry to hear that you drew a blank!! I'm well puzzled!?!?

All the best,

Nick

Went to a fete in Strensham yesterday and this gentleman had a stall with all sorts of historical finds and guess what?He was a pagan.Small world.

I had recorded a prog called churches and how to read them,settled down to watch it and they started to talk about Green Man.

Most are in churches I think he said only two were outside of churches.Folklore has it that Green man represents Adam in some way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00...ark_Beginnings/

link to the prog.

Thanks for the link Denise, I would have missed that otherwise. (For those in a hurry, skip to the 16th minute to get to the Green Man.)
I think it was only the church he was visiting that only had two outside.
Was that green Man at the fete for sale?
VM

No it was not for sale.

You can buy modern ones now,a market stall had all sorts one day of the festival in Lichfield.

I have seen this stall somewhere else but can't remember where.

The pagan chap had an interesting table of all sorts of little finds that I think must have been dug up.He was not selling them It was a village fete and I think he was doing it for interest.Wish I had took a piccie of the whole table now.

Also on the piccie posted sideways the grey object something like a vase or candle holder depicts a green man.

The programme is number one of a series so hope they may go back to the subject.

I find it interesting that the presenter Richard Taylor makes the point that The Green man may not be Pagan at all. He could even be early British Christian.

It was quite usual for up and coming religions of those times to introduce elements of the local superstitions and religions into their religion to get the locals on board. He also said that few few representations of The Green man were found other than in or on churches.

So John, if you want to find one in Brighton you'll have to start going to church.

Phil

Posted by denise

---

Went to a fete in Strensham yesterday and this gentleman had a stall with all sorts of historical finds and guess what?He was a pagan.Small world.

---

There are a lot fo them about these days Denise!! Laugh, laugh!!

Re. stalls - there was always (at least) one at the Lichfield Medieval Fair that sold Green Men...... I think the last time we went, there were some chappies doing wood carving (near the rear of the cathedral) and they had produced at least one version of these type of head...... In the small Christian gift shop opposite the entrance to the cathedral, you can (or could) buy an informative guide to Green Men, courtesy of Pitkin Books! Laugh!! These days, you can pretty much buy Green Men anywhere; I think they were even selling small examples in Lich. Cathedral in the past(?)

I did see a mention of the 'Church' related programme, but didn't bother to watch it in the end!!! Dohhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! I shall take advantage of the I-player option and view it later!! Laugh!!! (I may take Voltmans advice on skipping to the salient bit, of course!! Laugh!!!)

Posted by phil

---

I find it interesting that the presenter Richard Taylor makes the point that The Green man may not be Pagan at all. He could even be early British Christian.
It was quite usual for up and coming religions of those times to introduce elements of the local superstitions and religions into their religion to get the locals on board. He also said that few few representations of The Green man were found other than in or on churches.
So John, if you want to find one in Brighton you'll have to start going to church.
Phil

---

I think the Christian reference re. Green Men might possibly fall into the same category as churches being built on pagan sites; standing stones having crosses carved into the top of them; pagan festivals purposefully having Christian ceremonies placed over the top of them (Christmas and Easter, for example!) and pagan imagery being drawn into the celebration of Christian festivals (Easter eggs; Easter bunnies; mistletoe; Yule logs; Father Christmas and so on and so forth). The early Christians basically knew they couldn't eradicate pagan faiths, but tried to 'cover them over' instead with Christian belief and ceremony, etc: as you say Phil - 'get the local on board'! Laugh!!!

The only reason why the figure we recognise as 'the devil' has cloven hooves, horns, of course, is because the image was simply taken from pagan deities such as Cernunnos and demonised by the church. The church lays claim to a lot of things that has nothing to do with - or even pre-dates - Christianity, but they've simply turned such things to their own devices over the centuries..... Laugh!!!

All the best to everyone,

Nick

I found the whole prog very interesting even if you are not religious the information was fantastic.

What amazed me was the rude lady LOL.

Can not imagine how she has managed to stay up there all these years,amazed the victorians did not shunt her off LOL